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Arrow
Mar 2, 2015 7:49:50 GMT -6
Post by Jack Malone on Mar 2, 2015 7:49:50 GMT -6
In regards to "Arrow" taking a lot from the Batman comics, I say: if no one else is going to use the material, then why not use it? I think for me, it's a personal feeling that the character deserves to be done right - if you're calling a show "Arrow" and basing it on the character of "Oliver Queen", then use the ACTUAL plethora of material that exists for that character. Don't create a show just to use the source material of ANOTHER character you can't use because other people have the rights and shoehorn that material into the life of a different character. I get 'artistic licence' and all that, I mean, incorporating Deadshot, Huntress, Felicity Smoak, etc, they are decisions that worked well for the show, and using the League as part of the origins of both the Dark Archer and the Black Canary, both the Sara and Laurel versions, was a nice way to steer those characters onto their inevitable paths. I just think that Ollie has a rich enough history that deserves mining properly - they already used China White, Cupid, Count Vertigo and so forth, which shows they've looked into Ollie's history. Using Batman mythos to me feels like a disservice to the character and fans like me who appreciate the comic book origins of the show. Saying that, I was VERY disappointed when they 'whitewashed' the character of Brick, turning him from an African-American into a cockney White Englishman. SIDE NOTE: One of the main nitpicks I had with Arrow at the start was it's habit of paying 'homage' with throwaway characters that have developed history - Constantine Drakon for one, killed quickly in the pilot. Another is the abrupt disappearance/possible death of Ted Grant - while I hope they didn't kill him off, I could understand it as part of Laurel's development, but we never really got a clear answer. It sounds very nit-picky, though. I mean, this is a television show. It's not and never should be an exact replication of the comic books, and I think if you're wanting to see a character play the same role, or a story play out the same way rather than do something new and different and be it's own thing then just stick to the comics. The thing is: Ra's Al Ghul and The League of Assassins are relevant and important to the show because of Malcolm Merlyn. They later made it a step above that with the introduction of Sara Lance, and now they have to find a way to make them relevant to Oliver Queen so that he can stop them. I like when comic book shows have nods towards something you might catch as a reference, or allude to something in a similar light, such as Ra's Al Ghul saying he hasn't been challenged for sixty something years which kind of gives me the impression that is when Batman / Bruce Wayne might have existed in this continuity, but I in no way expect that from the show, or expect to be given stuff straight from the comic books. I like the creative choices they've made. I like, for example, that Roy was never Speedy and didn't have to go through three different name-changes for him to become "Arsenal" because of the "Speedy" nickname being given to Thea. I like that Laurel has a law degree, and is a badass lawyer and worked at CNRI (Canary) and "hates fishnets." I think the show established pretty early on that they were going to be a hell of a lot different than the comic books, but would maintain the integrity of those comics and seeing everyone react after this past episode by saying: "And that's how I became Batman" has just bugged me. We're never going to see Batman take on Ra's Al Ghul on Television. We're never going to see this storyline of Bruce being the next Ra's Al Ghul. It's just not going to happen. So while the show has written Ra's and The League of Assassins into their show since its inception, I have no problem with it going there and I think we all know that Oliver doesn't actually end up being the next Ra's Al Ghul, and that it is impossible. So, I don't get the big blow-up over it but I respect where you're coming from and I think your extensive comic book knowledge is impressive and epic and I love that but I think there comes a point with television shows, and movies, and new mediums that adapt another medium's story and world, that we just have to leave that at the table, and view it as it's own thing. I certainly don't want to see something happen on the show where I can just turn to a comic book and figure out everything that is going to happen from this point onwards, you know? I think it has to be different, it has to be the epitome of "based on" rather than an exact replication of the comics and that's where I stand on the whole Arrow/Batman situation. As for Ted Grant; the actor was signed to another show as a series regular. Originally, he was going to be Laurel's trainer throughout the majority of the season, and even serve as a love interest for her (which would probably infuriate you considering they have a father/daughter dynamic in the comics and he's much older). Unfortunately, they had to sort of severely injure him so that they could sort of imply that he was unfit to keep training Laurel now that he had suffered such a fate. He HAS been confirmed by the writers that he's still alive. As for Brick, I wasn't aware of a "white!wash" but personally, I love Vinnie Jones and he was phenomenal in that role and I much prefer him to the main threat of the season which is Ra's Al Ghul. |
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Post by Alex Matthews on Mar 2, 2015 8:20:27 GMT -6
When I first heard about "Arrow", and the certain creative choices that were made for it, such as the mother still being alive, and having a little sister, I quivered, because like you say, I AM a stickler for the comic book lore. But then, like you say, Jack, it's creative licence and shouldn't just be a carbon copy, I'm not looking for that - both Moira and Thea have been well fleshed out and brilliantly acted - even if I'm finding Thea a little too annoying at times of late, I still greatly respect the work Willa Holland has done the past 2 and half years.
It also helped differentiate Oliver Queen from Bruce Wayne, which given that 'Green Arrow' was pretty much a pastiche/clone of 'Batman' back in his original days, before writers took a hold of him and made him his own man, is always something good.
You bring up an interesting point that the League has been incorporated into the show since the first season, I never really thought of it like that before - Merlyn was presented as a loner, at least as much as I remember, it wasn't until the 2nd Season we realised that he learned under the League and Ra's. But I see now that those seeds were laid early on for us to go "oh!" over.
I also agree with you on the choices regarding Roy and Laurel (although I still cringe at that name, and wish she went by Dinah!), but regarding your point about Batman and Ra's, it's not that I WANT to see that - to me, Batman and Green Arrow are VERY different characters, I just feel that sometimes the writers/producers forget the core of the Ollie character in order to make the show 'grittier' and 'realistic' by making him a bit too dark for his own good.
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Arrow
Mar 2, 2015 9:26:07 GMT -6
Post by Jack Malone on Mar 2, 2015 9:26:07 GMT -6
^That's cool. I really don't see Oliver becoming the next Ra's Al Ghul, or proving himself in the sense that he could fulfil that role because he hasn't really proven himself enough yet in my eyes to be this sort of... all powerful leader. But, it's obvious the Christopher Nolan films have sort of re-energised and breathed new life into DC Comics based shows/films and "Arrow" embodies it's effects tenfold. I have hope that, out of all of this, Oliver slowly develops into a more close-to-comic-book version of "Oliver Queen" as opposed to the Bruce Wayne from TDK Trilogy but understand it is an origins show and there's probably at least another three seasons left in the series.
And maaaan, I love the name Laurel. I read the producers' reasoning on it -- because a lot of people weren't familiar with that being Dinah's middle name so always discredited her as not becoming Black Canary because she isn't "Dinah", and he said that the network wanted a fresher, younger name. The reason I love it so much is because when her full name is mentioned, and when she says her own name, it's just as epic as her being referred to as Canary or Black Canary. I just love it, haha!
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Arrow
Mar 2, 2015 9:49:10 GMT -6
Post by Alex Matthews on Mar 2, 2015 9:49:10 GMT -6
^That's cool. I really don't see Oliver becoming the next Ra's Al Ghul, or proving himself in the sense that he could fulfil that role because he hasn't really proven himself enough yet in my eyes to be this sort of... all powerful leader. But, it's obvious the Christopher Nolan films have sort of re-energised and breathed new life into DC Comics based shows/films and "Arrow" embodies it's effects tenfold. I have hope that, out of all of this, Oliver slowly develops into a more close-to-comic-book version of "Oliver Queen" as opposed to the Bruce Wayne from TDK Trilogy but understand it is an origins show and there's probably at least another three seasons left in the series. And maaaan, I love the name Laurel. I read the producers' reasoning on it -- because a lot of people weren't familiar with that being Dinah's middle name so always discredited her as not becoming Black Canary because she isn't "Dinah", and he said that the network wanted a fresher, younger name. The reason I love it so much is because when her full name is mentioned, and when she says her own name, it's just as epic as her being referred to as Canary or Black Canary. I just love it, haha! On the first part, I wholeheartedly agree with you, Mr. Malone!  In-show-wise, I get why they call her 'Laurel', she's named after her mother, and so Mom is 'Dinah' and Daughter is 'Laurel' to differentiate. But I LOVED the "Canaries" episode where the hallucination of Sara kept saying "Dinah Laurel Lance" in that condescending way, it gave me chills! Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sara was never 'Black Canary', was she? She was just 'the Canary'? It's Laurel herself who will take the name 'Black Canary'..? |
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Arrow
Mar 2, 2015 9:58:57 GMT -6
Post by Jack Malone on Mar 2, 2015 9:58:57 GMT -6
^Yes! Sara was sort of the Dinah Drake / Black Canary beginnings of the story, but on "Arrow", it's obviously Laurel's sister, and she's "Canary" where Laurel becomes "Black Canary."  |
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Arrow
Mar 17, 2015 18:24:08 GMT -6
Post by Alex Matthews on Mar 17, 2015 18:24:08 GMT -6
Hmm, just heard some more details about the proposed second spin-off they're working on, and once again I have a feeling of utter dread. I'll admit, when I first heard about "The Flash" spin-off, I had the same feeling, mostly due to the whole "if Arrow is supposed to be a more grounded universe of story-telling, how will they work superpowers and such into it?" Now, we all know that they did a brilliant job at covering their bases with that, and my worries pretty much evaporated after I watched the trailer. But this new 'show'... apparently, as well as having Brandon in as Ray, and Wentworth as Captain Cold, Victor Garber is also included, but MINUS Robbie Amell, for some unknown reasons. So, does that mean Ronnie's place in the Firestorm Matrix will be filled by another? We've already met Jason Rusch earlier, will they bring him back, since he is another member of the Firestorm ensemble in the comics, and will they recast with a new actor if so? But most worryingly, the news that Caity Lotz is in it as well?! Um, so she might be playing a new character, but seriously? I know "Heroes" killed off a character but then recast the actress in a new role, but that was part of an ongoing storyline - how could they do something similar? Could Nyssa maybe retrieve Sara's body and use a Lazarus pit to revive her? I know it's unfair to pass judgement without even a trailer but I'm hedging my bets with this one for now. We've still got two great shows to continue watching and following. |
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Arrow
Apr 19, 2015 10:09:10 GMT -6
Post by Alex Matthews on Apr 19, 2015 10:09:10 GMT -6
Spoilers for the latest episode ahead if you haven't watched it yet... So, Roy is gone? Apparently Colton Haynes' contract ended and wasn't renewed! Apparently they always had a 2 year plan for the character from his introduction and transition from recurring to main cast - he WILL be back for at least one episode, presumably the finale, though. The show creators even mention how they were casting Colton to help secure the 'Teen Wolf' crowd Still, although I'm sad to see Colton/Roy go, given how little development and actual personality he's shown in S3 up to his departure, compared to S1 and S2, maybe it's for the best? The producers also teased that Ollie will be getting another sidekick - could Thea finally done her own costume and take up the 'Speedy' mantle? Will they bring in someone from 'Arrow' history, like Cissie King, the second 'Arrowette', or maybe Artermis Crock, after her popularity in "Young Justice"? |
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Arrow
Apr 19, 2015 11:18:49 GMT -6
Post by Jamison on Apr 19, 2015 11:18:49 GMT -6
I'm still hoping Roy is a part of this Arrow/The Flash spinoff they've been working on. Even though it's a bit crowded already, I'd hate for this to be the last of Roy. Colton Haynes seems to leave shows as soon as I begin to like his character. Though maybe it's not his doing this time around. |
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Post by Brady Brown on May 13, 2015 19:32:08 GMT -6
Eh, so the season is over. I liked the finale, although it's probably my least favorite out of the three. There were some really good moments, and some really bad moments, but I think that sums up this season entirely. Hopefully the staff realizes the problems this season has had (*cough*Olicity*cough*) and can fix that when season four comes around.
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Arrow
May 18, 2015 16:27:03 GMT -6
Post by Brady Brown on May 18, 2015 16:27:03 GMT -6
I think one of the main things I want from season four of "Arrow" is showcasing the relationship of Thea and Laurel more. They rarely had, if any, scenes together during the third and it really shocked me because they're practically sisters. Laurel is pretty much the only female figure in Thea's life that she can look up to, and I think both women could benefit greatly from one another. I'd also just love a Speedy/Black Canary team-up, which I'm sure we'll get anyway.
Aside from that, just the remembrance that Laurel, even if it's not romantic, is one of the most important people in Oliver's life., and that she deserves to be able to say goodbye to people who leave and to know when tragedies occur with her friends and family.
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Arrow
May 18, 2015 17:01:02 GMT -6
Post by Jack Malone on May 18, 2015 17:01:02 GMT -6
I think one of the main things I want from season four of "Arrow" is showcasing the relationship of Thea and Laurel more. They rarely had, if any, scenes together during the third and it really shocked me because they're practically sisters. Laurel is pretty much the only female figure in Thea's life that she can look up to, and I think both women could benefit greatly from one another. I'd also just love a Speedy/Black Canary team-up, which I'm sure we'll get anyway. Aside from that, just the remembrance that Laurel, even if it's not romantic, is one of the most important people in Oliver's life., and that she deserves to be able to say goodbye to people who leave and to know when tragedies occur with her friends and family. I agree with all of this. I have one reason I'm really worried for next season, and one reason for why I'm not as worried. I'm worried because Season Three was promoted as a "big" season for Laurel and Thea, specifically. Guggenheim said at the beginning of the season that everything fans of those characters wanted to see for them will be done, and that it is a huge year for those two individual characters. As we know, it wasn't really the case. They had storylines that were massive but weren't given the attention they deserved. So for S4, Guggenheim has said it's a big Felicity/Diggle season (wow, that's new!) and my expectations have dropped immensely as a result. The less worrying thing is that there's a new co-showrunner for Arrow Season Four, and they're responsible for some really good episodes throughout the series. "Damaged", and "Salvation" were two of my favourites from the first season that she's responsible for writing. She also wrote "Crucible", "Blind Spot", "Time of Death", and "Seeing Red" in the second season which were all stand out episodes from that year that I can remember from start to finish. Lastly, in season three, she was responsible for "The Magician" (arguably a top five favourite of the series), "Midnight City" and "Public Enemy." So I have some hope for season four knowing that she's co-running it alongside Guggenheim. |
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Post by Brian Melanson on May 20, 2015 12:54:22 GMT -6
All I want from S4 is more epic Laurel scenes, and Thea becoming a more viable part of the NEW Team Arrow. I came into this season after binge watching the first 2 seasons. Jack, got me hooked on it. I love the show and now love all these Superhero shows that are coming. But I seriously hope, S4 is a grand improvement from S3. Looking at you Olicity, you ruined everything. But honestly, more Black Canary and Thea and Nyssa. Just more Arrow ladies.
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Post by Brady Brown on Nov 12, 2015 14:10:25 GMT -6
Let's have more "Haunted" and less "Lost Souls" please and thank you.
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Post by Brian Melanson on Nov 12, 2015 20:38:16 GMT -6
Let's have more "Haunted" and less "Lost Souls" please and thank you. More Laurel, less Fanservice |
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Post by Jack Malone on Nov 18, 2015 21:58:58 GMT -6
'Arrow' was so good tonight. Definitely on the same level as 'Haunted' the other week. I'm loving how balanced this season has been (minus last week's episode). You can have Diggle-centric episodes without having to pull focus away from the other characters. It's nice to see everyone get a decent amount of screentime, and play a role in story A |
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Post by Brady Brown on Dec 19, 2015 11:50:55 GMT -6
Season 4 has been really good so far. There's some really, really forced and unnecessary relationship drama from a certain couple. The back half of the midseason finale was incredible, and I'm loving the increasingly rekindling relationship between Oliver and Laurel. I continue to adore Thea, and I've become obsessed with flashbacks surrounding Thea, Laurel, and Diggle's time during the five months they were protecting the city on their own. Hopefully the second half follows the strong momentum!
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Post by Jack Malone on Dec 19, 2015 11:55:28 GMT -6
Season 4 has been really good so far. There's some really, really forced and unnecessary relationship drama from a certain couple. The back half of the midseason finale was incredible, and I'm loving the increasingly rekindling relationship between Oliver and Laurel. I continue to adore Thea, and I've become obsessed with flashbacks surrounding Thea, Laurel, and Diggle's time during the five months they were protecting the city on their own. Hopefully the second half follows the strong momentum! SpeedySpartanCanary FTW!  |
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Post by Brady Brown on Jan 19, 2016 18:09:55 GMT -6
Amazing.
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